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Author Topic: "I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."  (Read 10976 times)
MrVandemar
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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2004, 09:10:02 am »

MAN has it been a long time since i've posted here, so I won't rabble endlessly, I will just give my thoughts on the topic, because most of you probably don't remember me Wink

I haven't read this thread comprehensively, but some points i think i should make before delving into my thoughts about the film:

THE TREE IN EDEN AND THE FRUIT OF WISDOM:  God told Eve not to eat the fruit, because he gave human beings free will, and he knew she could resist if she wanted to.  However, God, being the supreme and ultimate existence (the guy who single handedly runs everything, from the millions of chemical bonds occuring between the nitrogen and carbon molecules in your DNA strands every day to the gravitational pull of the sun, and so forth), knew that Eve would NOT resist the temptation, and what the future would hold for mankind.

God told Eve to resist the fruit of wisdom for one reason:  wisdom is suffering.  Within the "fruit" (of course, this wasn't an apple or a tangelo or something, this was THE fruit, the divine blossom) was everything the blissful minds of Adam and Eve had never known: attachment, modesty, self-interest, and all of the other human flaws which contribute to suffering.

Think about the implications of the word "wisdom", as the fruit is named:  If you know nothing, you fear nothing, and you are attached to nothing.  Ignorance is bliss, and bliss is euphoria.  So if wisdom is equivalent to suffering, than God wanted to keep Eve from eating the fruit so Man would never have to know suffering.

JESUS DYING FOR OUR SINS:  If you have read the new testament (or even the prophecies of the Messiah in the Old), you know very well that Jesus COULD have stopped his crucifiction had he chosen to do so.  The man COULD perform miracles, son of God or not; he rose a man from the dead, satiated a hungry mob with only 2 or 3 loaves of bred and water (which he turned to wine), and more; all of which were witnessed not only by his followers but by his disbeleivers.  To say that this is mythology does have some validity, but if you look at it context, it is difficult to make such an assumption: the life of Jesus, chronicled in the Gospels, (which were written by four men sixty to seventy years after his death), is sometimes erratic in the testamonials of John, Luke, Matthew, and Mark.  Some scenes differ from book to book, such as the condemning in the courtyard (only one gospel contains the Jewish mob chanting "his blood be on us, his blood be on our children", for example).  However, the miracles of Christ are ENTIRELY congruent in all four gospels, from the names of the people present to the dates the events occured.  This is intriguing because not all of the gospel writers were in contact with each while their accounts were being written.

What does this mean, you ask?  Well, it DOESN'T mean that he is the son of God, if you don't believe that.  I am not trying to persuade anybody into accepting Christ, nobody could persuade me, and for all YOU people know, i might not be a Christian at all, i am just presenting facts.  However, as many religious leaders (Siddhartha Guatama, for example) have conveyed, there IS divinity, and Jesus was one of the few men who could display his slight affinity with the divine.  Whether you accept him as the Messiah is a personal issue.

Wow, did i get off topic.  As I was saying, Jesus said himself that he could have stopped his execution.  However, he knew that if he did, he would be going against all of his own teachings: he would be acting out of self-interest, and loving himself above others.  He let himself be crucified by wicked men, so that the world (not only the several people who saw him crucified, or Jerusalam, but the entirety of the generations ahead that he knew would follow him) could know his love.  He loved the world so much that he accepted their sins, and gave his life so that he could forgive man for the greed and hate which nailed him to the cross in the first place.

According to the Bible itself, The Jews did not kill Jesus.  The Romans did not kill Jesus.  We, as human beings, the flawed, greedy, and self-concerned creatures we are, were those who killed him.  Caiaphas, the high priest of the temple, was a Jew, and he was the one who told Pilate to execute Jesus, but can you not examine yourself, and say that you have never wished harm upon another person for your own interest?  That is the sin in every man that Jesus died for, and that Jesus forgave by giving his life.

AS FOR THE FILM:  Very well made, visually stunning, and brilliantly acted.  I think the portrayal of the Devil was nothing short of brilliant.  The entire film was quite emotional, and i'm not going to tell you my exact reaction to it in that regard, because I think it would add a touch of bias to this post that may be unnecessary. I think certain depictions of the violence were a bit over the top (turning him over, Cassius sticking the spear in his side, etc.), but rennaissance painting i have seen depicting the Crucifiction have been of the same calibur of violence, so i was not radically shaken in that sense.

I don't believe it was anti-semitic at all, i think people who don't understand the politics of the era or what truly happened might take a sense of anti-semitisism into the theater with them, and find such motivation within the film. But i saw the movie with my girlfriend, who is Jewish, did not find anything about the film to be anti-semitic.  In her words, the movie was "accurate, and probably very misunderstood."


 
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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2004, 11:54:40 pm »

I think one big problem with the garden of Eden story is simply this.  It is largely accepted that God exists outside of time and therefore can say what will happen because it may have already happened.  Now when I say God exists outside of time, I mean our time.  This of course would not be relevant if you believe that God is sitting in the clouds.  The Christian faith clearly places heaven as being outside our universe rather than within it.  Ok so how does this affect the garden of Eden story?  Well don't you think its kinda stupid to give people a test that you know damn well they'll fail and then hold a grudge for thousands of years when they fail a test that you knew they wouldn't pass?  

I think you need to take the new testiment's account with a grain of salt remember it was written in the time when the Romans were still rather critical about things people said about them.  If they'd gone on about it was all the Roman's fault that Jesus died what do you think would happen?  My bet is that they'd kill the people writing the Gospels.  Maybe I'm the only one who remembers the Messiah prophecy, but for the record the Jews were awaiting a messiah who would lead them to salvation.  This was widely viewed as meaning a revolutionary leader who would free the Jews.  What it may have more accurately implied if you're a believer is salvation after death.  

Next in regards to the Gospels; they were written after Jesus died in fact quite some time later.  So there was plenty of time for good writers to edit the accounts and make them as consistant as possible.  The fact is that we do know that human beings have a tendency to tell tall tales and overstep the truth.  Now I'm not saying that Jesus didn't exist because I certainly believe that he did and I do think that he probably was a really great guy.   What I am saying is that there is room for exageration and potentially fictional writing in the bible.   Wouldnt that explain inconsistancies too?  How many people believed in the alleged WMDs that Iraq supposedly had.  I'll be the first to admit that I believed the reports made prior to the war.  They were composed by far more people than just four so the whole idea that a book written by four people must be valid is a poor argument I'm afraid.  I'm not a historian but I'm fairly certain other accounts of Jesus exist outside of the bible so I dont doubt that the crusifixion took place it's more a case of the circumstances, the miracles and so on.  

Finally again I will point out that ironically it was the Romans who turned Christianity into a mainstream religion which has spread to its current size today.  This is because the roman emperor Constantine adopted it.  In his day Jesus had thousands of supporters and whilst that may seem like a lot, as I've said before the human thirst for answers in regards to spirituality often lets us overlook people who might just be good intentioned people who dont know the truth at all.  I will now draw your attention to falun gong.  This page is in no means associated with the group and does acknowledge the ban in place in China so its not designed to discredit the group or boost support.   This group claims to have a 100 million if you follow the link at the bottom of the page and look at the history page.  I suspect a more realistic figure might be 15 million.  Given that it's illegal in China I sincerely doubt the 70 million figure.  Still that's a lot more support than Jesus had.  Now is this group likely to be right in its claims of spiritual enlightenment or is it an evil cult as the Chinese Govt has declared.  I'm not answering that question but I will say this I'm highly skeptical about anyone who talks about supernatural powers,  mixed children not getting into heaven without his intervention and finally of course the evils of homo-sexuality.   Which I think science has largely determined is not a choice.   Now in my comparative study I will also point out that Falun Gong/Dafa also has the internet on it's side to help spread it's popularity along with Aeroplanes and global communication networks whilst Jesus had well word of mouth and horses to work with.  Oh and to set the record straight one last time I've also met his followers and am obviously not one myself
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Man on the Train : Hey, are you a dreamer?
Wiley : Yeah.
Man on the Train : I haven't seen too many around lately. Things have been tough lately for dreamers. They say dreaming is dead, no one does it anymore. It's not dead it's just that it's been forgotten, removed from our language. Nobody teaches it so nobody knows it exists. The dreamer is banished to obscurity. Well, I'm trying to change all that, and I hope you are too. By dreaming, every day. Dreaming with our hands and dreaming with our minds. Our planet is facing the greatest problems it's ever faced, ever. So whatever you do, don't be bored, this is absolutely the most exciting time we could have possibly hoped to be alive. And things are just starting

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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2004, 02:03:09 am »

Hi everyone

I'm back,
Sorry I'm running a bit late, what did I miss?
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Lestat
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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2004, 05:36:34 am »

Bend over, Jesus.  I'll show you.  ;(
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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2004, 05:43:16 am »

That's wrong for so many reasons.

-Surtur almost fell off his chair laughing, though.  That's the weirdest mental image ever.
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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2004, 07:04:13 am »

ROFL

That was hilarious. Cheesy
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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2004, 10:38:17 am »

I'm gone 2000 years and that's how you greet me Lestat?  I thought about sending you to see old Lucifer but then I realised that you'd enjoy that sort of place too much.  Though Purgatory that could do wonders for you.

Sending me here why has dad forsaken me?  

Still it beats being crusified.

 
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"I don't know anything 'bout Jebas."
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2004, 10:40:44 am »

2000 years why couldnt he wait just one more century?
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Man on the Train : Hey, are you a dreamer?
Wiley : Yeah.
Man on the Train : I haven't seen too many around lately. Things have been tough lately for dreamers. They say dreaming is dead, no one does it anymore. It's not dead it's just that it's been forgotten, removed from our language. Nobody teaches it so nobody knows it exists. The dreamer is banished to obscurity. Well, I'm trying to change all that, and I hope you are too. By dreaming, every day. Dreaming with our hands and dreaming with our minds. Our planet is facing the greatest problems it's ever faced, ever. So whatever you do, don't be bored, this is absolutely the most exciting time we could have possibly hoped to be alive. And things are just starting

Waking Life
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