LOST discussion thread (with spoilers)

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May 2012

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[Surtur]

Yeah, just watched it.  Good episode.  I'm glad there was actually an explanation for why Ben was like "Good work" in that really patronizing way to Juliet in that first (or second?) ep with her.  It seemed strange at the time for him to act like that to a colleague, but I guess Ben was saying it because he was forcing her against her will to do what she did to Jack.

It's these little things that give me faith that the writers aren't just throwing in random cryptic comments/scenes without any idea what they actually mean, anime-or-video-game-style, lol.

[Surtur]

Okay, I think that was one of the best episodes of the show, and certainly the best of the season.
But yeah, I just wanted to post this interesting theory I came across, that's probably my (current) favorite Lost theory, lol.

Hopefully you've already seen the Lost Experience video (google it) which explains how the Dharma Initiative was created to change to core environmental factors that the Valenzetti Equation predicted would dictate the end of the world. These factors are 4,8,15,16,23,42. You have to wrap you head around this wildly metaphysical and quantum physical science fiction idea that space, matter, and consciousness are all connected on a sub atomic level and that the equation is no less than a way to predict and control fate or probability. The Dharma Initiative set about changing the factors of the equation, but it is the island itself that has the power to apply those changes. The island possesses geologically unique electromagnetic energy, perhaps this stuff is the key to shifting the sub atomic properties of the universe and potentially creating a new fate. My personal theory is that when "The Incident" occurred, it accidentally applied new factors and created a new fate for the world. Since then, about twenty years ago, the universe has been "course correcting" itself to bring about this destiny. A series of causes and effects are being created. That's sort of what Desmond's episode last night showed us. The causes seem inconsequential - Desmond does not buy the ring. But they eventually lead to a more important effect - Desmond blows up the hatch. Which is itself a cause that will eventually lead up to a final fate of the world - whatever it may be. At the risk of sounding cheesey, the characters on Lost are kind of cosmic chess pieces that are being put in place by the unseen forces of probability so that they will bring about the fate of the world. I think that's why there are so many seemingly inconsequential meetings of the characters in the past. They only seemed inconsequential to us because the Valenzetti Equation was in such an early stage of woring itself out. And now, apparently Charlie's death is something that needs to happen as a part of these series of events. The Valenzetti Equation has already been accidentally applied, and the fate of the world has been decided - Desmond has shown us that you can only fight fate for so long, probability will catch up sooner or later. Now there would have still been a chance to apply a different fate to the world, if Desmond had not released all the electromagnetic energy from the island when he turned the key. Now they're SOL. Chew on that, let me know what you think, and we'll talk more.

and

I want to share my explanation of Walt and his powers, starting with the polar bears. When the polar bears were found on the island, many people watching the show noticed that Walt was reading a comic book that featured a polar bear in it. They came up with a theory that Walt somehow made the polar bears appear on the island out of thin air. Not exactly true. Then later we learn about the bear cages, the polar bear footage, and the experiments with zoology by the Dharma Initiative. Then the theory became that the polar bears were brought to the island for some kind of research and it was just a coincidence that they were in Walt's comic. Actually, both theories are correct at the same time. Walt cannot make things appear out of thin air, but he does somehow affect the probability of things to happen. Walt seems to unconsciously fate things to happen. In other words, Walt somehow can course correct the universe to affect the probabilities of things happening. Walt didn't make polar bears appear out of nowhere but he did cause the universe to create a series of circumstances that would have them appear (the zoological experiments of the dharma initiative). Walt makes coincidences happen. Walt didn't make that bird fly into the window by reading a book about birds - the bird flew into the window for whatever reason. But Walt did create the coincidence of it happening. Affecting probability, creating coincidences, that's the idea of the show. Like the coincidence of Jack running into Desmond at the stadium in the past. Or the hundreds of other coincidences that have occurred on the show.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[A.C]

it was good alright, but confusing. if i understood it right, the flashback we got was infact Desmond reliving his past after he turned the failsafe and not an old memory. that's why i'm not sure Desmond had future visions in the past. my theory is that it all comes back to the island and the "monster", which i from now on shall call the "Eyeland" because i don't like the label "monster".

anyway, my theory is that Desmond is being tested by the "Eyeland". the whole Charlie dying thing, that's Desmond's test. this whole episode sort of reminded me of the episode "Dave" from last season, and having just watched the two previous seasons last month again, i have no doubt "Dave" was the "Eyeland" and a test for Hurley.

remember that old woman from the jewelry store, the one Desmond thought was his subconscious? when asked if she was his subconscious the old woman responds "am I?" that woman, imo, was the "Eyeland" talking with Desmond. the old lady said two interesting things: "the universe has a way of course correcting... that man was supposed to die. that was his path..." and "pushing that button is the only truly great thing you will ever do." 

this, is the setup for the test. after Desmond turned the failsafe he was lying on the ground and the "Eyeland" visited him, removed his clothes for some reason, and entered his memories/dream. while in the dream, the "eyeland" noticed Desmonds subconscious desire to change his path (when he was buying the ring) and quickly entered the memory of the old woman to manifest and tell him he can't change his path, and thus sets the test in motion:

Desmond: "I'll take it [the ring]."
Woman: "No, you won't."
Woman: "Give me the ring, give it here."
Desmond: "...I don't understand..."
Woman: "This is wrong, you don't buy the ring, you have second thoughts... you walk right out that door."
Woman: "So, c'mon let's have it."
Desmond: "I don't know what you're on about...?"
Woman: "You don't buy the ring Desmond."
Desmond: "How do you know my name?"
Woman: "Why I know your name as well as I know you don't ask Penny to marry you. Infact, you break her heart..."

notice the highlighted sentence. the old woman knows because she is the "eyeland" and has scanned all his memories. in order to set the test in motion the "eyeland" then goes on to show the man getting killed and suggests that "that man was supposed to die" and proceeds to give Desmond future visions while on the Island in order to see if he will accept these or try and change them. if Desmond gives up on Charlie and stops his attempt to rescue him i think he'll "fail" his test, because his test is to keep trying. this is because Desmonds highest desire is to change things, and in order to break him down the "eyeland" tells him that pushing that button is the only truly great thing he'll ever do. something he does not want to acknowledge but also something he deep inside fear is the truth. the "Eyeland" simply descovered this fear and brought it to the forefront of his current life.

there's one thing that confuses me though, and that's why Desmond argues that there "is no island" in his flashback, as if it wasn't a memory. my though is that maybe he was dreaming the flashback and therefore couldn't know that it was his memory.

as for the theory you posted. i'm not sure that Dharma is that important. the island have a much older history than the Dharma timeline, and the "Others" are not really working with Dharma either as far as i can tell.

oh, and while watching the first season again i believe Sawyer also was tested by the "Eyeland" in season 1. remember the boar that messed up his shelter, that Sawyer went out to kill? that, i believe, was the monster in disguise again. that episode had Sawyer's hardest flashback to date and showed the first time he ever killed a man. i believe the "Eyeland" wanted to test him and see if he really was a killer and it turns out that Sawyer doesn't have it in him to kill the boar. had Sawyer shot it, then perhaps the smoke would've come out and killed him? look closely the way they focus on the boars eye in that scene. that boar is the monster.

[Surtur]

Well, Dharma's purpose is explained in the

video that he mentions

, from the Lost Experience.  Kind of annoying actually, that all that information was already revealed through this game.  If they revealed some of it through the show itself, people would probably have fewer complaints about the show not answering any questions, lol.  Oh well, presumably they'll cover this stuff during the show at some point, too.
It does seem like the Others are not working with Dharma, though, as Dharma appears to be more or less finished ("we all know that Dharma failed").

As for the monster, I don't disagree that "Dave" was Hurley's test (though who knows if it was the entire test or not), or that this whole going to the past thing was part of Desmond's.  I don't think it's really necessary to believe that the monster just stumbled upon him in the forest and quickly entered his dream though, lol.  More likely that the monster somehow pulled him out of the implosion, and then made him have the dream, from the beginning, I think.

[A.C]

the Lost Experience doesn't answer alot though. infact, it mostly gives us many more questions. even though this video may not show up in the show, i'm pretty sure the things in it will be adressed. the things we learn are pretty much only these two things:

1. Dharma was established to "save the world as we know it" because of an equation that determines the end of the human race which is 4 8 15 16 23 42.

2. Dharma failed and another group (who someone is spying on) attempts to take radical action to change the values of the equation. this seem to include a virus and a vaccin (or just a vaccin, but one that will kill 30% of people. like someone wrote on the blastdoor map: "The disease worsens with the treatment. The remedy is worse than the disease.")

the reason i don't think Dharma is important is because the equation must have been there before, and Dharma is mostly used by the writers to have established cool hatches and other technological/zoological applications that the castaways and Others can make use of in the show. the question remains if the "monster" was somehow created by Dharma or not. the blastdoor mentions a Cerberus station in writing (not drawn) that is believed to be abandoned due to "AH/MDG incident of 1985 or possible catastrophic malfunction of Cerberus system." this is, of course, assuming the monster is Cerberus. it's also possible that the "monster" was contained within the Cerberus station for some time.

now, regarding the latest episode. it appears to me that Desmond had an eyeland induced hallucination of his past and forgot what happened to his life while in his hallucination of his past. i agree that the monster coming for Desmond right after he turned the failsafe key seems more likely then just randomly finding him in the jungle (though i didn't exactly mean that.) i'm pretty sure an event like the hatch implosion would attract the "monster" to go after the man who pulled it off.

as for Hurley's test being complete or not. i think that the Eyeland choses the issues that the person being tested has the most urgent thing that needs resolving on. i don't think the Eyeland would return as Dave for Hurley, but if Hurley has another skeleton in his closet (i believe another Hurley centric episode is coming up soon) then maybe the Eyeland would decide that it's time for another test to see if they deserve to stay.

so far i don't think we've had two tests for a single character. Jack, for example, hasn't had any encounters with the Eyeland since White Rabbit as far as i can tell.

Locke is an interesting example though, because it appears the Eyeland hasn't tested him as much as it has tried to lead and help him. it even sacrificed Boone in order to save Locke. i believe Locke has been the Eyeland's right hand man up until now. the reason for this could be that it only saw good in him (when scanning him right after the crash) and granted him the ability to walk again.

[Franz]

And you prefer "the eyeland" over monster?! Haha.

Anyway, I think it was stated either in an Entertainment Weekly or Podcast (either way it came from the producers) that the Others and Dharma have a direct connection.

[A.C]

And you prefer "the eyeland" over monster?! Haha.

it's an in-joke based on one of the individual title tracks on the official LOST soundtrack CD (which serve as humorous counterpoints to LOST's unfolding drama, serving as in-jokes that should be recognized by fans.) The Eyeland is the "monsters" theme. it's an awesome name :-P

[A.C]

here's a theory based on the latest episode (Par Avion)

i think the people who are on the "list" (Jacob's list) are the same people who are getting benefits from the Eyeland. we now know Kate isn't on the list and neither is Sayid and that's why Mikhail said he didn't "know" them. Locke, however, is on the list.

this leads me to believe that the people who are on the list are:

Locke (confirmed)
Sun (confirmed)
Jin (because he is rewarded/healed by the Eyeland)
Rose (because she is rewarded/healed by the Eyeland)
Walt (because the Others came for him)
Cindy (because the Others came for her)
Aaron (because Ethan came for him. note; i think it's possible that Aaron wasn't on the list and they wanted to take him in as soon as possible to "save" him, but after Claire gave birth to him they gave up because he was now "lost". that would also explain why Ethan was so violent and determined to get Claire back as soon as possible after she got away. i also think that taking in an undetermined newborn child is a gamble, like Alex.)

and people who are most likely not on the list:

Jack (confirmed)
Kate (confirmed)
Sayid (confirmed)
Sawyer (because he was used for labor like Kate)
Claire (because Ethan only wanted her baby)
Hurley (because he's been tested by the Eyeland)
Desmond (because he's being tested by the Eyeland)
Rousseau (like Claire she is probably not on the list since they only took in Alex)
Charlie (i think he was tested in Fire+Water so i'm leaning towards not on the list. also because Ethan almost killed him.)

people i'm not sure about:

Michael
Bernard
Nikki
Paulo


so, what did Mikhail mean when he said Kate wasn't capable of understanding why they want to stay on the island? because only those who got "healed" understands, and those people are on the list.
"You are not on the list because you are flawed. You are angry and weak and frightened."

Mikhail: [talking about the disabled underwater beacon]
 "...It would be impossible to come back."

Kate: "Why would you want to come back?"

Mikhail: "You would not understand..."

Kate: "Try me..."

Mikhail: "What i meant to say was... you are not capable of understanding."

John Locke blew up the Flame Station in order to make sure they are not leaving. just like the Others he is determined to stay on the island.

[Franz]

I'd probably agree w/the very last thing you said, about Locke. That's what I love about his character though...he's very much like a child. Selfish at times, tries to hide things from others (recently the C4 in his pack), and always has a secret alterior motive.

Next week's episode we supposedly get a lot of answers from Ben to Locke.

[A.C]

i think there is a possibility that there are "evil" Others who are hiding underground. it could explain alot about the "good" Others behavior. for example the Wispers/Dark Territory/Smoke Monster could be related to them. the Smoke Monster did try to drag Locke underground. Why else would the Others refer to themselves as "the good guys"? why such a dangerous supersonic weapon defence? and why such hostillity towards people who are not on the list? perhaps the "evil" Others have their own lists too.

and something the producers said in a podcast recently bugs me... apparently Desmond did travel back in time after he turned the failsafe key and was not just dreaming... i just can't work time travel into my theories, it's just too much...

[Franz]

Yeah the time traveling thing throws me off too much, can't even BEGIN to dissect that one. A bit too complicated w/not enough info for now.

[A.C]

another really great episode last night. What Locke's dad did to him was one of the most shocking things i've ever seen. there's no doubt Anthony Cooper is really evil, and that brings me back to the theory i just posted, that there may be evil Others in the island who would recruit bad people like Cooper. the thought hit me when the police inspector said that "your father fled to mexico after your encounter, then he dissapeared. your father could be anywhere in the world." of course this could just mean that he ended up on the island by accident and was soon captured by the "good" Others, though i find that scenario kind of convenient and cheesy. my bet right now is that the Others captured him from a group of evil Others but i'm surprised that Ben seems to know so little about the island. if there is another group controlling parts of the island then that would make sense though.

i think now we can be pretty sure why Ben wanted Locke to stop pushing the button when he was in the Swan station, he has probably wanted the communication equippment to stop working for a while now, although the podcast did say that Ben did not know about the swan until possibly after the crash he could have figured it out when he pushed the button during the Lockdown.

also, isn't it still possible to get off the island by boat the way Micheal and Walt did?

so next weak we might finally know where they're going with Paulo and Nikki...

[Franz]

I know that Nikki and Paulo are supposed to turn out rather important in the end, so I'm curious what next week will be like. As usual, any Locke episode is a good episode and I wasn't disappointed at all. Getting pushed out the window is fucking nuts!

I'm not sure what went on w/Michael and Walt exactly. For a while I was thinking that maybe the sub "ran into" the boat and picked them up, playing along as a group of scientists or whatever, but then I realize that if the hatch incident made the sonar nav inoperable, then the sub would have been one-way only. Since we haven't seen the last of Walt and Michael, I wonder if they really ever got off the island to begin with?

The box is rather interesting, when Ben first mentioned there being a "giant box" that will show you whatever you want, my first thought was "yeah, the monster." Everybody's had their vision from the monster (Christian, Yemi, horse, etc) so it seemed to make sense to me. But then at the end when Anthony Cooper was tied up, I figured that the "magic box" IS that box/the room. My only guess for now is maybe that what Locke really wanted to see was his dad in distress as a term of revenge and Ben, being as knowledgable as he is, was certain that's what Locke wanted so he told Locke about how the island was the only place his father couldn't reach him...supposedly.

Either way, its more mysteries and I'm glad Locke blew up the sub.

[A.C]

i didn't think much of the "giant box" metaphor since i believe Ben mentioned "box" to make sure Locke wouldn't care for the metaphor (being a former box-man) and make him go after the sub. there could be something to it but that's not what i'm interested in at the moment (unless more is revealed next week).

i think the coolest thing for a Paulo and Nikki flashback would be to show what they were doing during the past 80 days on the island (if they really are supposed to be that interesting) but it will most likely show what they did right before they got on the island. that's the trend for first time flashbacks anyway.

i think the most likely characters to get on-island based flashbacks are only Ben and Russeau. for some reason i don't think they'll bother with Juliet.

[A.C]

Man, this episode was great. full of fanservice (stripper Nikki and Billy Dee Williams!), revisited characters (Boone, Shannon, Ethan and DOCTOR ARZT!!!!), more in-jokes than you can shake a stick at! "You're next" "No, he meant ALL of you, as in everyone!", over the top disrespect for Nikki and Paulo (Vincent stealing their blanket!) and to top it all off, we have what most fans have been asking for all season... the death of Nikki and Paulo! a particularly distubing one also. like someone on another board said, it was "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern meet Alfred Hitchcock."

nice touch to have Jack's "live together or die alone" speech in there too. Nikki and Paulo were both only out for themselves and didn't share any of the info they came across. they pretty much died alone.

also Charlie coming clean about what he did to Sun was nice.

there wasn't much relevance to the ongoing story though but now we know exactly why Ben was caught in season 2, the castaways got a Walkie, and i was a bit intrigued by the monster noice before the medusa spiders showed up. were Nikki being tested by the monster in all of this? i kind of entertain the idea that Smokey gave Nikki the illusion of being bitten (and paralysed) for 8 hours to test if she would run straight for help or bury the diamonds first. if she didn't bury the diamonds she would have made it in time to tell them she was only going paralysed and she would have survived/passed the test.

i kind of suspected that we wouldn't get anything more on Anthony Cooper this week. my bet is that Anthony Cooper will be this years "hatch" and remain the most interesting thing for the rest of the season (just like Ben was last years "hatch") and will slowly lead us to the revelation of another group of Others...