LOST discussion thread (with spoilers)

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May 2012

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[A.C]

note, i don't want any preview spoilers in this thread, please use the spoiler tags for those. other than that spoilers of the latest episode runs free.

after watching this latest Episode of LOST (3x05 - The Cost of Living) i felt a need to share my theories and start a thread.

First, in the Dharma video, they said they want to create a eutopian society. maybe a society where there's no evil and killing but everyone still has a free will.

i have noticed that the "Others" seems to have a big fixation with making their subject's obey them by their own "free will". they wanted Claire's baby but only if she gave it up willingly. they wanted to free Ben (Henry) from the Castaways and bring them Jack, Kate and Sawyer but only if Michael made them come to them willingly. Right now Ben wants Jack to perform his surgery but only if Jack does it of his free will.

what is the reason for this?

my theory is that the "Monster" is working like a security system, like Ruosseau called it, and scans everyone who appear on the island and gets rid of the bad ones. it could also be that the vaccine that Desmond took in the hatch keeps the Monster from scanning people and mess with them. i also saw a screenshot of the invisible door map and some writing is pointing out alot of "Cerberus activity" in an area. could this be the name of the "Monster"? it would fit it's function alot.

this seasons flashback's have set up this revelation of the "dark side" of different Castaways. the moment where they have to "kill" someone and if they have the heart to do it or not. Jack was pretty crazy but he didn't kill his father. then again i guess his real test is whether or not he will kill Ben during the operation or not (something i don't believe he'll do, and i think Juliet knows that), Sun was clearly capable of killing on top of being a lier and cheater (a bad apple, no?), Jin on the other hand couldn't go through with Sun's father's request (good guy), Mr. Locke wasn't capable either, he wasn't a "hunter" as the cop said. then again, mister Eko said he was a "hunter" later and the Monster has appeared as both a light and as the violent smoke grabbing him through the forest. hmm.

Mr. Eko was a killer and the Monster got him after he had performed the tasks the "Monster" had him perform after it had "scanned" him in the 23rd psalm. his time was up. it's pretty clear now that the visions and dead people appearing (Jack's dad, Yemi, Kate's Horse, Kate's dad, Dave) were all the "Monster". it killed Eko, and the fact that "we're next" makes me excited. i haven't been this excited since the 1st season. so who do you think the Monster will go after next? who's good and who's bad?

the only thing i'm a little worried about is that they'll drop this thread for the majority of the season since i heard rumors that Eko wasn't supposed to die this early but his actor wanted out of the show. i still think it was the perfect time to let him go and bring in the Monster as an active part of the storyline. nobody will look at those visions and dead people appearing in the same way again.

here's my list of good and bad (based on kills only)

Jack (good)
Kate (bad)
Sawyer (bad)
Sayid (not sure if we know that he actually killed someone but he seemed all for it when they planned to capture the others)
Hurley (is he responsible for the death of those people or not? i can't remember the details)
Sun (bad)
Jin (good)
Locke (good)
Charlie (bad)
Claire (we don't have much to go on, nothing really good or bad stands out in her)
Michael (bad)
Walt (good, because the Others got "more than they bargained for" and they let him go)
Desmond (not clear, but seems good)
Rousseau (bad, if her story is true)
Rose (good)
Bernard (seems good)
Nikki (not clear)
Paulo (not clear)
Ben/The Others (my guess is they're good, all of them. there is the issue of Ethan's methods though, did he or the Monster kill Scott? and Alex says the Others are bad. hmm.)

dead people:

Eko (bad, and killed by the "Monster")
Ana-Lucia (bad, but didn't have time to be judged by the Monster.)
Libby (not clear)
Cindy (bad and killed by the Monster?)
Shannon (not clear, but maybe the "Monster" had a part in her death by manipulating the whispers/vision of Walt/Ana-Lucia?)
Boone (not clear, but maybe the Island/Monster did demand a sacrifice?)

discuss!
(how many here is into LOST?)

[Franz]

Its been said that (from the blast door map) that Cerberus = monster/security system. What its true purpose is I don't know, however I don't really like the whole good vs bad theory that a lotta people suggest. Initially it was good/bad because people those maybe it was pergutory which we now know it isnt. I think the vaccine is phony and just another con to obey what Dharma REALLY has in store for the experiments, etc. The producers did say in a podcast (i think) that we'll find out the story behind the vaccine, supposedly. So they may be more to it than we really know. I think there is still a lot of mystery behind the monster than we can really guess so far. Why did it not attack Locke when he was looking for the boar (season 1) yet attacked him near the end of the series? Why did it show images of Eko's past (season 2, Psalm 23 I think) and remain inches within his face and not attack, yet ultimately killed him?

Some people say that its because he didn't ask for forgiveness from his image of Yemi. Had he done this and accepted that even though he did those bad things so his brother could live (to "do what i needed to do to survive"), they were still sins and he should have ultimately asked forgiveness. The line, "you talk to me as if I were your brother" is somewhat startling and/or confusing, but I think what the last episode REALLY gave us was the possibility that the monster has something to do w/the visions of people/hallucinations. To what detail...I don't know and that is still something that I don't think we can guess just yet. A coworker said that Jack saw his dad, and made up w/him, Kate saw the horse and made up (w/her father), Hurley got rid of Dave and overcame him, etc...and had Eko asked forgiveness, he would have moved on. But, I can't exactly see the monster killing Jack or Hurley, can you?

One thing the producers DID say (and I think is ALLLLLMOST worth going back on the DVDs and checking) is that after Eko saw the monster in season 2's Psalm 23, we've seen the monster in another form and did not recognize it. WTF! Insane!

I'm sad to see Eko go because he was one of the "kickass" characters who could get shit done like Locke, and now Desmond (my opinion, but I like him a lot now). However I think it was tastefully done in that now we know why he built the church on the island, etc. A lot of people think that once a character's story has been told in LOST, they are off the show. I was afraid Sayid was gonna be the one dead before episode 13 (producers mentioned that as well, that somebody would die before ep13) but I just didn't expect Eko.

~~~~~~

I don't think Jack will kill Ben either for several reasons, mainly because its not in his nature as a doctor and because Ben is proving to be a vital villian of the series. I can see him helping Ben out and then a "so NOW how do we get rid of him?" storyline. There have been rumosr that Jack will decide to stay w/the Others, we'll see. Juliet and Jack need to hump already though.

~~~~~~

Also, I think Sun killed Jae, and not another hitman from her father. I'll discuss that later if you wanna her me out. You've opened up Pandora's Box w/this one, AC, in that I'm a fanatic. The studio I work for also does the DVD menus for LOST, so its only natural.

www.lostpedia.com if you don't know about it, and if you don't, have fun reading for the next week. That's all I did while I recovered from surgery this past August, is read the shit outta that site. Some of the theories people have are dumb (Radzinsky's dead, stop trying to make lame theories that he's alive!), but some of the shit on that site is amazing, especially the little details like screenshots they provide, etc. God I love this show.

Also... http://fishbizkit.ytmnd.com

[A.C]

personally i'm quite fond of the good vs bad theory, or at least that the Monster is out to get them. the Purgatory theory that was debunkted by the creators was more in line with that the characters had to resolve something from their lives before they can die. i'm glad it's nothing like that.

I don't think the vaccine is phony because that'd be an easy explanation and nothing in this show has really been phony. the button, for example, was very real. right now i'm leaning towards the Monster and it's influence. for example, Sawyer is infected and the result is he sometimes appear as Kate's father in her presence. did the Others give him the vaccine? most likely they don't have it.

Why did it not attack Locke when he was looking for the boar (season 1) yet attacked him near the end of the series? Why did it show images of Eko's past (season 2, Psalm 23 I think) and remain inches within his face and not attack, yet ultimately killed him?

i think the Monster collected data/scanned all of the survivors of the Fuselage while they had passed out (including Locke and the Pilot) but it never scanned any of the Tailies because they where too far away from the "Cerberus area". so when it ran rampage during the early season 1 it was looking to kill a few "bad apples" and got the pilot (and maybe Scott) but once it came across Locke again it took the appearance of a white light because Locke is pure good (he may be the most good out of them all) and Locke started to believe in the Island, in the eutopian society the Island was meant for. later it stopped hunting the Castaways because i think the Others might have protected them, or their lives on the island and the way they looked up to Locke made them nicer people. the Others have access to this information that the Monster collects but they don't really control the Monster themselves. the Monster could start providing security for them and did it's test with Jack. by the end of the season it grabbed Locke because suddenly he was carrying dynamite and the Security System could see that he had a violent intent, which is unacceptable. it wasn't judging or testing Locke, it was an accute interference.

when Eko saw the Monster in the 23rd Psalm, that was the first time the Monster had a chance to collect data from him and unlike the Castaways he was consciouss and could observe it as it did so, and so could Charlie. i think it saw potential in Eko and knew he wasn't an immidiate threat but also knew he had to be dealt with sooner or later.

One thing the producers DID say (and I think is ALLLLLMOST worth going back on the DVDs and checking) is that after Eko saw the monster in season 2's Psalm 23, we've seen the monster in another form and did not recognize it. WTF! Insane!

yes i think it was in a podcast too. i know i was looking for it and the hallucinations, especially "Dave" with his physical shoe, came to mind but i discarded the idea in favor of the giant bird, lol.

as for Ben's operation. i think Juliet's idea that Jack should kill him during the operation is Ben's own idea. i seriously doubt Juliet would think that Jack is capable to do it, not to mention the risk of being called out by Jack. and i don't know why you would think that Sun killed Jae. it was so obviously a suicide. Sun's father doesn't have many other real hitmen or else he wouldn't need Jin so badly. Sun is clearly capable to pull the triger if it comes down to it, but she isn't an outright coldblooded murderer.

as for Jack humping Juliet... the guy sure needs it, but i don't want any sexscenes. sexscenes sucks, and BSG had enough to make me want to throw up. sex is only acceptable in:
1. comics
2. horror movies
3. artsy european porn

[Franz]

I don't think the vaccine is phony because that'd be an easy explanation and nothing in this show has really been phony. the button, for example, was very real.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the vaccine does or doesn't do. If you ever looked into The Lost Experience, one of the last videos was a Dharma meeting about the vaccines. I think a guy was instructing to make people take it regardless, or make them THINK they have to take it. But, I am pretty sure we get to find out wtf the vaccine is about this season. Curious little mystery.

and i don't know why you would think that Sun killed Jae. it was so obviously a suicide. Sun's father doesn't have many other real hitmen or else he wouldn't need Jin so badly. Sun is clearly capable to pull the triger if it comes down to it, but she isn't an outright coldblooded murderer.

Perhaps. I just liked the theory that she COULD have done it, which ties in the very beginning of the episode w/the glass ballerina, showing that she'll cover up/do whats wrong if it means saving her own skin (not admitting she broke it and guiltlessly letting the maid get fired). It also ties shooting Colleen as we see she certainly IS capable of murder. Granted it was shoot her or fall victim to the others, but she proved Colleen wrong. I think Sun's father DOES have other hitmen, because if you recall in season 1 Jin was to deliver a message, and when he did it wrong, Jin was escorted back to the same house only for some other goon to beat the shit outta him (but Jin ended up doing it himself). Obviously Sun knew that Jin was going to go after Jae since she was aware that her father knew of the affair. When Jin told Sun he had to deliver a message, she knew exactly what he meant. As far as her motive for supposedly killing off Jae, which is where its fuzzy, it could be that she knew Jae could end up being more trouble for her. At the funeral, "are you going to tell Jin?" could not only be the affair, but the murder. Eh, I dunno but I really don't care THAT much to argue about that point forever, heh.

As far as Scott dying from the monster, I doubt it. I think that Ethan said he was going to deliver a message, by killing one off, and he did it.  Plus, now that we know about the sub, its possible that's how he approached the castaways since they said he came from the water.

Re-reviewing the good/bad theory, its a theme that probably IS in play. I am not going to start trying to figure out how its in play just yet - Ben said that Locke was one of the good ones at one point as well, and supposedly the tail section castaways were taken because they were the good ones too...although Eko was on the list and was supposed to be brought away because he was viewed as a threat. This is the shit that is annoying right now because some things seem to contradict each other, and they probably will until we know the answers.

Lastly, glass eye in The Arrow station? Yeah, might belong to the eyepatch man. I think he's either in The Flame or possibly the radio tower...unless that IS the radio tower. Then again, Roussaeu said that "they" took the radio tower. Interestinggggg...

[A.C]

i have never looked into The Lost Experience. what is it?

oh yeah, i forgot about that other hitman that went with Jin in season 1... though i'm still going to stick with the suicide theory. Sun killing him just seems too much. wouldn't she have known that was Jin's car she threw him at too? i think Sun lied and Sun's child is Jae's and not Jin's, and i think that was the purpose of the glass ballerina lie flashback.

i'm not completely convinced that Scott was killed by Ethan now that we've seen the Others but it'd be a pretty silly convenience if the Monster happened to kill him right after he made the threat too. maybe the Others didn't think Ethan would take it that far but he did. oh, and how do we know about a sub? i don't remember hearing about one in any episode.

i forgot about the glass eye in The Arrow Station. actually, now that i think about it... wouldn't it make a little sense if the eyepatch man actually was Radzinsky? i mean he made the edits on the film which ended up at the Arrow Station (and along with his glass eye?)  or maybe the man with the eyepatch is 'him'.

you know, during season 1 i always wondered why they didn't check out the radio tower and even forgot about it until you mentioned it now.
so the complete stations list is:
The Swan
The Arrow
The (Medical Station?)
The Pearl
The Hydra
The Flame
there were only six, right?

back to the good vs evil theory.

yes, the Others attempted to take Eko, but they're not the Monster. when the Others collected info they probably came to the conclusion that Eko was good because of his profession as a Priest, but immediately stopped trying to get him after he killed two of them. they made a misstake, as they did with Sun.

also, about the Monster. i want to clarify that i don't believe the monster is out to judge people and make them "confess their sins" in the same manner as it did to Eko. Eko was judged by the standards he himself set. remember what he told Michael? he told Michael that God would grant forgiveness if one confesses and were truly sorry for what they had done. that was the standard he set up for himself, but when he was finally confronted with his own judgment he realized he wasn't sorry for what he did and therefore he could confess to nothing, and that was his end. you could almost say that he killed himself. it would have been completely different if someone else confronted the monster that had another religion, or maybe no religion at all. maybe Hurley and Jack had their judgment already and passed what they put as their own standard.

it's a bit like that episode of Red Dwarf, The Inquisitor, where the crew are judged by themselves in order to get a fair trial. the two most selfish and vain people are, to our surprise, spared because by their own low standards they have lived up to themselves, while the more agreeable characters (Lister and Kryten) are judged hard because they could have been so much more than they lived up to.

so, for example, if Michael returned to the island and was judged by the Monster, most people might think he's royaly screwed because most people conscider him the worst person in the story and since the Monster killed Eko it would probably go berserk on Michael right? but what if Michael is really sorry for what he did? actually, we know he is sorry for what he did, and i doubt he would start defending it like Eko and therefore he might be spared from being thrown out of eden.

another strange thing that just hit me. didn't Ben say he's lived on the island all his life? that must mean he's been there since before Dharma, because the Dharma first came to the island in the late 70s. Ben has to have been there since the 50s or 60s at least if he was born on the island.

[Surtur]

Ahem.  Didn't want to read this thread until I watched the last episode of Lost, which I just now did.   It's difficult for me to come up with Lost theories, because I have a terrible memory, and Lost requires you to keep track of so many freaking things, lol.  So my theories are probably totally off, but I'll round 'em off anyway, if for no other reason then to be set straight by someone else.

First off, I just want to say that I also thought Sun killed Jae.  My main reason, apart from what Franz already said (that she probably realized Jin was going after Jae in the first place), is that when Sun and Jin are arguing, Jin says "this is what it takes to be married to you!" and Sun replies, "what does it take to be married to you?"  I think she resolved that sparing Jin from having to kill Jae was something that she owed him.  But I dunno.  I'm pretty sure Jae did not kill himself, anyway, as he didn't really give me the impression that he felt like he couldn't live without Sun.

My very vague and basic theory about the whole show (which is probably totally wrong) is:  The Island itself is alive.  The Others are it's caretakers.  They are not related to the Dharma Initiative.  The Dharma Initiative probably did not create the island, but found it long after, and came to try and study and exploit it.  The Others maybe drove them away, along with the help of the Monster (which I imagine was created either by the Others, or the Island itself).  The Island, through some kind of subtle manipulation of Desmond, caused the plane to crash, for the sake of the Others, who were in need of several (if not all) of the people aboard (eg. Jack, obviously, but also Walter, and Claire's baby).  Everyone else, who is not immediately important, has the potential to become one of the Others, but must first be judged to be pure or good or whatever.
I suspect the Island is attempting to do... something, lol, that will affect the rest of the world eventually, and that it's been preparing for it for a long time (barring interruptions from things like the Dharma Initiative) - and now that it's getting close to doing whatever it needs/wants to do, it needs more caretakers to watch over it.
The hallucinations of dead people, I think, are manifestations of the Island itself, and not the Monster, which is just there to kill things the Island doesn't like, lol - or that it thinks are a threat to the Island.  I'm thinking that the Monster looks like a beautiful, bright light when it's not angry, but gets all dark when it is.  Or maybe the color is just a reflection of the purity of the characters' soul.
I'm pretty sure, however, that if any of this is the case, the Island's definition of good and evil is skewed (and thus, so is the Others').  It's probably one of those cases where it thinks whatever end it's working towards justifies the means, which for the good guys, will be too much to bear (like, say, wiping out all life to start a new utopian civilization on Earth or something... which might explain why it has all those animals... in order to repopulate the Earth after it... kills everything).  I suspect Locke will wind up siding with the Island, making him a bad guy, but then repent at the last second, lol.
So yeah, that's my weird theory.

Finally, I just want to say that I agree that Juliet was most likely told to do what she did by Ben.  Why Ben wanted her to, I'm not sure.  It could be that they're trying to make Jack feel sorry for him, or possibly to offend Jack's moral and ethical sensibilities so that he'll try even harder to do the operation right, or something.  I dunno.  But I'm pretty sure they're manipulating him.

Also, who's Radzinsky again?  And Scott?  I have already forgotten these people, lol.

[Franz]

Holy fawk this is getting huge even with 2 people.

AC:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Lost_Experience

Lost Experience is basically outside links, movies, etc that are official from the creators and ABC. Basically...just check it out. Its a lotta easter egg stuff, nothing that gives away major plot points or spoilers, but what I've said about the vaccine I've found out from the LE. There's also stuff on Dharma's zoology and Joop, the orangutang, etc. BTW I'm still buzzed from the shows I went to tonite so I hope my spelling and shit makes sense.

Radzinsky (for Surtur, it was Kelvin Inman's partner, who shot himself and blew his head off/blood is on the ceiling of The Swan) is officially dead according to producers. That's why I hate people's theory that he's still alive.

Stations: The Swan, the Pearl, the Arrow, the Staff (medical), the Flame (yet to be discovered). 5, until we found the Hydra this season. So 6. Oh, I guess you could say "The Door" that was at the fake Others camp in season 2. This map is now outdated but still very cool, check it out: http://swirlee.org/media/2006/07/lost_map.jpg

The Sub! I forgot to tell you. When the Others bring back Colleen in S3 Ep4, Juliet is talking to Jack and then Ben bursts in. He says "the sub is back, we have a situation." I think this is why the Others were able to reach Desmond's boat w/o being seen traveling thru the jungle nor, if you notice, being wet should they have come from the water (the only side Sayid/Jin weren't watching).

Surtur
As I told AC, read www.lostpedia.com It'll really clue things in, and its a very addicting/fun read. If you've read this post then you know/remember who Radzinsky is, and Scott was essentially a nobody survivor of the flight. People always called him Steve, and vice versa. I don't think we ever actually saw either one of them except maybe in a brief one-liner.

The creators said in disc 7 of the 1st season dvd (i think) that they wanted the island to be a character essentially. So yeah, I think there is some kinda mystery behind the island itself. Locke was very quick to lend his faith to it.

[A.C]

Jin says "this is what it takes to be married to you!" and Sun replies, "what does it take to be married to you?"  I think she resolved that sparing Jin from having to kill Jae was something that she owed him.  But I dunno.  I'm pretty sure Jae did not kill himself, anyway, as he didn't really give me the impression that he felt like he couldn't live without Sun.

i didn't look at it that way. when Sun replies "what does it take to be married to you?" i think she meant the emotional stress of knowing what her husband is up to at nights. she tried to reach out to him but he wouldn't have understood what she meant if she was refering to something like cleaning up his mess, lol.

also, Jae probably loved Sun more than we realized. besides, having to leave your country and feeling the shame of being "spared" by Jin... i dunno. something about asian culture? i still think he jumped.

btw, Scott was the "red shirt" that Ethan supposedly killed when they didn't return Claire to him in season 1.

i didn't know Radzinsky was confirmed to be dead by the creators but it makes sense since he, supposedly, shot himself.

now i'm leaning more towards the eyepatch man being 'him' and probably someone who knew and worked with Radzinsky. Radzinky's edits of the film, and eyepatch man's glass eye in one and the same place. hmm... maybe eyepatch man had something to do with the invisible doormap, the edits of the film, the reason Radzinsky killed himself, the reason no more "replacements" showed up, why Kelvin asked Desmond "are you 'him'?" and maybe he started the "lockdown" too. i'm sure the eyepatch man has been monitoring the Swan.

oh, and that map is cool. but the placement of the Dharma stations looks wrong compared to the doormap. shouldn't The Pearl be in the center? and shouldn't they be spread out more?

[Franz]

Re: Radzinsky (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Radzinsky)
"Kelvin explains that, when he was asleep, Radzinsky committed suicide by putting a shotgun in his mouth and firing it, causing a blood stain on the ceiling. Radzinsky's death is confirmed by Gregg Nations at The Fuselage, who says he is also not the Eyepatch man." I think the cause of Radzinsky's death is pretty mundane - that he lost it having to push the button and being stuck inside the Swan, couldn't take it anymore, and blew his brains out.

I think "him" was just a creation by Ben while he was captured. It was a lie to make the Losties believe he wasn't the leader. So far he seems to be the one in charge (more or less) of the Others and we haven't seen much to imply there is somebody above him. Ben faked that he was worried that because his mission wasn't successful he couldn't return to camp empty handed because "he" would punish him.

Re: the map, well its fan created, so I'm sure things are off. Just a cool reference though.

[A.C]

I think "him" was just a creation by Ben while he was captured.

no, i meant the person Kelvin was waiting for. he asked Desmond "are you 'him'?" when he first woke up in the hatch. i don't think Kelvin was asking about Ben, but rather the Eyepatch man. someone Radzinsky might have mentioned.

[Franz]

Oh. I just took "him" as his replacement for the Swan. After all they were only supposed to be stationed there for a small time until replacements relieved them.

[A.C]

but weren't the replacements supposed to come in pairs? i think asking a potential replacement "are you him" sounds a bit odd. i think he knew there wouldn't be replacements and thought Desmond might be someone else.

[Franz]

True, I do think that saying "are you him" is a rather roundabout way to ask "are you my replacement?" and the whole snowman/carrot joke seems like a rather specific thing to ask. Would that be a common inside joke for those associated w/Dharma Initiative?

This article is a theory about the Monster that Eko's actor has. I think its pretty similar to what we've been discussing.

[A.C]

thanks for posting the article. he never say that he wanted to leave the show so maybe it was all planned a while for him to go this episode.

oh, and who else thinks that Kate has been turned by the Others? pretty much everything points towards it and i bet this wednsday we will find out.

[Franz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-eHEYswgK8

This is what I was referring to concerning the vaccine. The Sri Lanka video explains what the island is for, what the radio tower is for, that there is an underground station(s), and food drops, etc are regular. This video was taken by a hacker, Rachel Blake, who was part of the Lost Experience.

Watch it! (And no, I don't think Kate's been turned, though they do show some favoritism I think in the way they treat her)